0:00:00.0 Darin: Welcome to Resource on the Go. A podcast from the National Sexual Violence Resource Center on understanding, responding to, and preventing sexual violence, and sexual assault. My name's Darin Dorsey. I'm an expert in sexual violence prevention and organizational equity, and co-founder of Rooting Movements, which is a consulting firm that helps organizations ensure that their internal practices are consistent with the values that drive the change they intend to make in society. In this podcast series, I'm speaking with Black leaders, advocates and movement workers about their experiences in the movement to end gender-based violence.

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0:00:57.5 Darin: Today, we're speaking with Theryn Kigvamasudvashti. Theryn is a professor at Seattle Central Community College, where she teaches communications. She's also a consultant for organizations that are looking to level up their projects, she helps organizations with community engagement, community building, program development, outreach, evaluation, equity, inclusion, and a number of other things. She's been in the movement for an incredibly long time. Theryn was the former Executive Director of Communities Against Rape and Abuse in the Seattle area, and also a community organizer with the organization prior to her stint as Executive Director. She has an extensive knowledge of community organizing approaches to ending sexual and domestic violence. I'm looking forward to speaking with Theryn and talking about her knowledge of the history of this movement and where we're at today, and how we can better center Black communities, Black advocates and Black movement workers.

0:02:09.9 Darin: I'm joined today by Theryn Kigvamasudvashti, and we're gonna be talking a little bit about anti-Blackness and the movement to end gender-based violence. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to hear your experiences, your insight and your perspectives. To start off, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and your role in the movement to end gender-based violence? 

0:02:36.9 Theryn: Yes, thank you for having me be a guest, it's an honor to be able to talk about the movement and work and our people. So, my role currently, I am in academia, like my major gig is teaching. However, I do lots of side gigs based on my work in the anti-violence movement. And so, I spent 10 years at Communities Against Rape and Abuse. Some of those years, the latter four of those years were spent in leadership at the organization as our program director went off to an amazing program in terms of grad school and become genius in the world, me and another young person... I mean I wasn't young, but me and a young person that had worked with me on the Black People's Project, which was my program, became the co-executive directors. As a result of these relationships, I still work with a number of these organizations today, and part of that work looks like supporting community building work at API Chaya, other parts of that looks like me facilitating conversations around SA and DV, particularly as those kinds of issues come up in groups of folks that consider themselves community. So, if there's an organization that has somebody who is a chronic sexual harasser or something else is going on with regard to relationships and sexual assault, domestic violence, then I'm often called to support those groups having that conversation.

0:04:33.8 Theryn: One other thing that I do currently that I'm really super stoked about is being able to use my skill sets to support Black folks in Seattle, to support Black people on like a personal level. So in the Black community in which I exist, it is an arts community, it's a pan-African community, and folks trust me when there is something happening in the community that's not cool, folks will ask if I could come in and support conversations, right. And so I love to do that work, I do that work for free. I do charge organizations, especially organizations that are led by White people, or have lots of White people on staff, I charge those organizations good money because of the amount of emotional labor that actually goes into having conversations about anti-violence work in the context of intersectionality, right? And so, I'm doing all this teaching and then I have to do all this buffering and wear my armor and not take it personal, and so, yeah, those groups pay me good money so that I can give my time to my people.

0:05:53.7 Darin: Hmm. I really appreciate that perspective, because I think a lot of times, people don't factor in that reality that we are experiencing violence in our anti-violence work. And if that requires strategies to buffer ourselves against them, and it sounds like your strategy of this... Of asking for compensation from these groups where you know you're going to experience more harm, sounds like a fitting one.

0:06:24.4 Theryn: Yeah, it works. [laughter]

0:06:28.1 Darin: So, most of the folks that I'm speaking to for these interviews, they work in non-profit organizations or they do consulting work full-time with non-profits. A lot of what you do is in the academic context. Can you tell us a little bit about what movement work looks like from that perspective? I think when people think about DVSA in academia, they think about public health, they might think about psychology.

0:06:53.4 Theryn: Hmm, mm-hmm.

0:06:54.0 Darin: But I think there are... It can be much broader than that, so I'm curious on your perspective there.

0:07:00.0 Theryn: Certainly. So currently, in my position... So I'm a communications instructor, and I have like a whole history background involved in mass media, specifically radio, but... And I've been doing that since I was 16 years old, right? When I am teaching, especially my public speaking classes, where I have a section where we focus on narrative and the importance of story and how story... Your own story or being able to share a story helps the audience connect with you because a lot of lessons that can be learned and stories that we share resonate with people, right? And our people have those kinds of experiences themselves.

0:07:56.4 Theryn: I also am showing up from a very specific situated position in my communication classes, so I'm really honest with my students when I tell them about my background, because a lot of my stories and some of my examples are connected to anti-violence work. So I let my students know right away that I used to be an executive director in an anti-rape organization, and that I support community around ending sexual assault and domestic violence. And what that has done is... It was so... I mean it was so organic, but by just being honest and saying that, I find that students will identify me as a safe person and will often disclose, because it's like the first time they felt seen, even in the context of talking about mass communications, right? Or public speaking. And when we get to narrative speeches in my classes, a number of students have shared their own story of SA.

0:09:16.9 Darin: And it's interesting, because they will say, "This is the first time I'm actually saying... Telling the story out loud," and it's really cathartic for them. And so, by giving people information of my background, I'm identifying as somebody who is an advocate and can be supportive, and then people show up. And I love supporting my students wherever they are. And sometimes, that looks like helping students safety plan or create a strategy, sometimes it means sitting down with them and their siblings, sometimes it means having conversations with male partners who are survivors of domestic violence or survivors of SA. And yeah, so that's one, I guess that's one really clear way that... How ID in the world is impacting the multiple spaces in which I exist. In terms of from an academic perspective, I think that in the early days of CARA, we were all reading the fourth chapter of Paulo Freire's book, Pedagogy of the Oppressed, right? And the fourth chapter was so critical to CARA's design because it had the conversation about the importance of organizing and also the work of informing, the work of critical thinking, being able to create space for conversations, to have these discourses around SA and DV in order to strengthen the organizing.

0:11:16.5 Theryn: So for me, that... What we consider academic, which is... Could be rigorous inquiry into particular theories in a particular framework within the context of a field, like all of those things, my academic perspective or habits lend themselves very easily to my organizing and vice versa. So, I don't know that I've ever thought of SA or say our domestic violence strictly from an academic perspective, but being somebody who's in academic spaces, it's been helpful to name things for folks, who want to talk about experiencing violence in the context of schools or in the context of some of my faculty peers. Also, it... I use... It's interesting, there were... I recently was in a union meeting, and this thing had played out where the chair of the union intentionally silenced a faculty member who was trying to make a point. And when we all got together after that whole event, I talked about the experience of, like how getting shut down like that is very triggering. And even that word, 'triggering,' comes from the domestic violence and SA movement, right? And when I talked to... I made an analogy between that experience and organizing around sexual assault and how that gets shut down in ways, right? [chuckle]

0:13:14.3 Theryn: Just one of my faculty members said, "Wow, I've never thought about how we experience violence at the school and in our union in the same way as people experience sexual assault and domestic violence." Like they were like, "I have to sit on that for a minute, 'cause that's real." Right? Those patterns of power and control and abuse exist everywhere.

0:13:45.0 Darin: Right.

0:13:47.1 Theryn: Yeah.

0:13:48.3 Darin: Right. And I think people often don't think about violence on this continuum that it does exist in, and so they're looking for these egregious acts of physical violence but not recognizing what leads up to it, which is often the silencing, this control and what you're describing here.

0:14:06.7 Theryn: Mm-hmm.

0:14:07.8 Darin: And I do want to potentially point folks to an article that you've contributed to, which is called, "Pursuing a Radical Anti-violence Agenda Inside, Outside a Non-profit Structure." I just wanna point folks to that, so that if they're listening to this podcast and they wanna hear a little bit more context in your experiences for the... In general, the Seattle anti-violence history, then I really encourage folks who are listening to this podcast to even potentially pause right here and read that and revisit this interview, this conversation, because I do think it provides a little bit of context for some of the experiences that you had doing this work.

0:15:01.4 Darin: So with that said, I'd like to talk a little bit about non-profit structures and how that plays into this movement. So, when you look at this movement from a historical perspective, funders and government institutions influence over how resources are allocated has grown very quickly. When you look at this movement as over hundreds of years old, this is a very recent thing. What's the impact of this change, of this increase of government institution and funder influence, and how can funders work to ensure that community-based organizations are the ones that lead this work? 

0:15:46.2 Theryn: I have a really quick answer and then I have a less quick answer. So, my quick answer is, if your foundation has the resources, give the resources. Give the money to marginalized communities, give the money to Black folks and trust the work will get done and stay out of the business. That's what I would say right away. Because I think what happens in non-profit structures is non-profits become beholden to carrying out the work that the funder wants to see done, not give you the money that you can use to address the work that you are seeing needs to be done, and that your community is telling you needs to be done on the ground. So the non-profit structure also is one where funders, it's as though they cannot fathom giving money to anybody outside of that structure, because it is a top-down model of helping people. But when we are trying to do the radical work within sexual assault, domestic violence, when we're trying to get that work done, what we focus less on, or actually what we're trying to de-center are those power and control relationships. But non-profit structures only reify power and control relationships.

0:17:25.9 Theryn: So, there is a manager that has to be... That is accountable to an executive board, and that board is fiduciarily responsible for the organization, and so they have to be all up in how that money is getting spent. And even with boards that try to be as hands-off as possible, they still have a relationship with the manager that the other staff members, volunteers, contractors don't have with them. And so, I think non-profit structures actually, I know it's a default model that people go to when they wanna start asking for funding, but that's because funding is set up to only work in a non-profit way. Funders want to fund projects that they can then say, this is the work that we support, and if they don't... If you're not doing work that is important to their mission, then they start questioning how you're using their money, and then that opens up a whole another level of stress and anxiety and trauma that is actually not the work of supporting communities and certainly not the work of spending money in useful ways to end violence. So, I think non-profit structures, I think it's a default mechanism, but I think they're as problematic as corporate structures. And really, non-profit, it just means that the money goes back into the organization, but there are CEOs, people who call themselves CEOs of non-profit, that pull down much money a year in salaries. And it's like, let's start there, let's...

0:19:27.0 Theryn: Like what if the whole organization... Everybody got paid the same. And that was the case with CARA. Actually, when it started, it was like, we recognized that not being a non-profit facilitated the destruction of Seattle Rape Relief, which is what gave rise to the death of Seattle Rape Relief, gave rise to the birth of CARA, and the death of Seattle Rape Relief was caused by an interim director whose relationship with the board was not transparent to everybody else in the organization. So then when the volunteers showed up one day to staff the phone lines, the hotlines, the SA hotline, they showed up to doors that were chained shut. And as they began to question and do research as to what happened, it became apparent that the lack of transparency in that non-profit facilitated the shutting down of the entire organization with no warning, no heads up to a lot of the people.

0:20:36.0 Theryn: So by the time folks started thinking about, "Well, if we're not gonna try to save this organization, what are we gonna do?" When they said, "We're gonna start a new organization, it was; Transparency is key, everybody has a say in power, no one is in a hierarchy, and the board is accountable to the community, the board and staff are accountable to the community," and that worked for a while, even with that intention, that was extremely insightful and did like deep work and reflective of meaningful work could not hold up to what became the reality. And that is, if you have one person who is...

0:21:27.7 Theryn: While other people are organizing in the field, and you have one person that's trying to bring the money into the organization, trying to build relationships with coalitions, trying to create visibility of marginalized communities, and that one person is doing all that work while everybody else is on the ground, then over time, it seemed as though the best way to address the issue, especially when asking for money, was to say, "Okay, we have an executive director instead of a program coordinator, we have... " The board recognized that the program director's work is, looks really different, and so we need to reflect that in the pay. And it was like, CARA did what it could, but because of funding and the nature of non-profit structures, we ended up falling into the same habit.

0:22:21.0 Darin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really appreciate that you've brought the structure of the board of directors into this, because I think funders just add another layer of control on top of that, you know the work is happening on the ground.

0:22:36.6 Theryn: Right.

0:22:37.8 Darin: And then those folks that are organizing, that are doing that work, they're gonna have to answer to this board of directors that as you pointed out, usually through an executive director, and there's a lack of connection there, and I think there are ways to create an effective board of directors that really reflect the community. But oftentimes, that's not the case. Oftentimes, you've got bankers, you've got lawyers, you've got folks that can bring in funds, and that can be really disruptive to work happening that actually impacts the community in a positive way. One thing that I wanna highlight here is something that kind of connects to your specialty, which is narrative, and then you pointed out how funders have this interest in themselves going out and being able to say, "Hey, here's what we support, here's what we fund." And I think there can sometimes be a gap when they are trying to push this narrative of what they fund, and the organization itself is trying to do some type of work in the community, and...

0:23:40.1 Theryn: Right.

0:23:40.7 Darin: When these funders don't reflect that community, they might not understand the work. And then that, I feel like there's something there that causes a pretty significant barrier for marginalized communities to get funding.

0:23:56.8 Theryn: Exactly. The thing is, is that I find when people join boards, especially at non-profits for the most part, in my lived experiences, people want to do good in the world. So they join boards out of the desire to participate in doing something good in the world. Once people are in the system and they start doing that board work, it's not that that value of doing good in the world goes out. What happens is that because of the nature of hierarchy within non-profits and the notion that the board is because they are fiduciarily responsible, is the... Are the people who where the buck stops, that then creates a situation where board members start to feel themselves a little bit too much. They start to think without them, the organization can't do what it does, and then they start to try to make decisions that may not be supported by the staff, such as maybe focusing on getting rid of an executive director that everybody really appreciates and loves. But the executive director themselves pushes back too much on the board, so then the Board wants to organize to get rid of them, the staff is trying to fight to save them, and at the end of the day, the board gets to get rid of them based on the fact that they're the ones that are fiduciarily responsible to the organization. And so the people who initially joined the board to end up doing good in the world have then become themselves part of the mechanisms that harm.

0:25:44.1 Theryn: And when you have harm happening at the top of an organization, it's only gonna trickle down, and it will look like with your staff, it will look like fatigue, rage, revisited trauma, and that in and of itself makes it difficult for people to show up fully in their work, even though we do, we do, but it's like a way of slowly dying. I think that's why so many people that do this work end up getting out.

0:26:22.4 Darin: Right, they burn out.

0:26:24.5 Theryn: They do, they do. It is exhaustive on your mind, it is exhaustive on your heart, it's exhaustive on your whole body.

0:26:36.7 Darin: And I think often the narrative is that people burn out in this work inherently because they're spending time talking to survivors and processing, but I appreciate this conversation because what we're actually talking about is the structures on which we do this work, the structures in which we connect with survivors, provide advocacy, and support and other services is what burns us out, not the act of connecting with survivors in itself.

0:27:06.7 Theryn: Exactly, exactly. And those structures are still patriarchal in nature, it doesn't matter if you have a queer organization led by women of color, if they are stuck in a patriarchal system of power and control and hierarchy, absolutely. And that's the thing, is that funders seem less interested in rethinking structure, they are less interested in rethinking structure because they just want to be able to help the people, but part of the helping the people is supporting and believing, and trusting the folks that are doing the work.

0:27:50.7 Darin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think also funders can do some advocacy themselves. They are connected to these institutions that are even higher up. I know...

0:28:01.6 Theryn: Yeah.

0:28:02.7 Darin: I had a situation, and I believe in late 2019, where I hosted a training for folks who did sexual violence prevention in the state of Washington, and we called it a retreat because we needed... We wanted these folks to connect with each other, we wanted them to rest, to breathe, because we know...

0:28:23.0 Theryn: Yeah.

0:28:23.6 Darin: That they're in these non-profit environments that they're not making a lot of money, that they're under the control of these various structures and what not. Yeah, and that's just their job, they're also dealing with whatever else they're dealing with in their lives, and so we had this retreat. It went fantastic. The feedback was across the board and wonderful, and the one point of feedback I got back from my grant manager after that was, "Oh, we can't use the word retreat anymore, they don't like that," that they had questions about that, they weren't sure what that means. They think that you all are actually doing productive work, and I'm like, "Okay... "

0:29:05.9 Theryn: Oh my God.

0:29:07.8 Darin: So why don't you challenge them on this, you know, as a funder, you're the one that's in the room with them, you're the one who should understand what this work looks like and the importance of having a retreat for people that do sexual violence prevention. But so often I see that kind of... I even for a number of years saw folks saying, "Hey, we can't exactly say that this is a person of color space where White people are not invited, we can't exclude White people. So just say it's a Black people's space, but we have to provide an equal but separate, [laughter] opportunity for White folks to receive education." And I'm like, "Well, honestly, y'all should just get sued about this and fight that fight as opposed to forcing us to let White folks into our spaces or to create what...

0:30:00.5 Theryn: Oh my God.

0:30:02.5 Darin: Equitable spaces for White folks. But I think so often there's this hesitancy for funders to actually connect with the work that they're supporting and then advocate for the actual work and what people on the ground are looking to do.

0:30:17.7 Theryn: Yes, so many nails hit dead on the head, it just that... It just what you said. It's astounding to me how little people with money trust people who are not Caucasian, period. "Oh, can you tell us again what you're doing? Can you do that a little less and do this other thing a little more? Can we be... Can we create equal space and White people come into the room." Like if I hear the word, if I hear like that term, that idea, the statement that it's an equitable space to make White people feel uncomfortable, I'm like, "This is why the conversation about race in America has to stop being so damn tepid, 'cause people aren't getting it." That's not how race... That's not how oppression works. Absolutely not how oppression works. I have this experience, and even in my classrooms, when I push back on specifically White male students, when I push back on White male students, next thing you know, I'm in a conversation with my dean, and I'm like, "Why? Because isn't it our job not to push back." And you know what... You know, deans come and go, and I one conversation... This one conversation I remember having was, "No, that's not our job."

0:31:46.0 Theryn: "Our job is not to push back, our job is to give them as much information as they need so that they can make an informed decision," like you are not there to push, you are there to educate. And I'm thinking at what point did not pushing at a college level of education become harmful or become the thing that we don't do. You know what I'm saying? And so this idea that you're pushing, when we started pushing back on funders... I'm sorry. I'm just having... I'm just like situations that I know about are exploding in my head right now. There are so many examples of brown people like saying, "You know what, keep the money."

0:32:33.0 Darin: Right. Exactly.

0:32:34.0 Theryn: "Keep the money. We'll figure this out ourselves," right? And that's... At the end of the day, that's what my co-director and myself actually came to the conclusion of, we have to stop accepting city funds because it's not gonna help. Like they wanna be all up in our Kool-Aid in this way that's exhaustive and disrespectful and not in service of good for our people. So y'all can keep your money.

0:33:03.1 Darin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've seen it, I've been there. And that... And the alternative is that that money still goes to somebody.

0:33:11.5 Theryn: Exactly.

0:33:11.8 Darin: But not to that community, not to that organization that's connected to that community. Instead, it's often that sort of default organization that is often White-led, White board and kind of the traditional non-profit and so then we see these cycles perpetuate.

0:33:30.9 Theryn: Oh. Yes.

0:33:31.7 Darin: So I have a couple of more questions before we go.

0:33:36.4 Theryn: Okay.

0:33:37.4 Darin: One being, it's March of 2022 right now. About two years ago in 2020, a lot of organizations sort of became aware of this thing called, anti-Blackness and racism.

0:33:54.0 Theryn: Yeah.

0:33:54.8 Darin: And made a commitment to interrupting it. And sometimes specifically around interrupting the anti-Blackness. We've since seen how that's gone. I think it's one thing that I often point people to is, public opinion around Black Lives Matter and other related issues from 2020 to now, and seeing the backlash that's occurred there. What do you think organizations that want to move in this direction and want to continue to move in this direction and sustain it, need to know and understand? 

0:34:31.9 Theryn: That's a good question. So for my own mental health, I have a cadre of Black folks that I go to when I need support, right? And they have a variety of skill sets and experiences and work in different fields. Some of them are super close friends, other folks, a little bit more extended out in my concentric circle of community. But one thing that we all freaking agree upon, is that the world is anti-Black. The freaking globe is anti-Black and it is never so apparent. Than situations like now, when we are looking at what Russia is doing to the Ukraine, and we see then the de-prioritization of refugees who are in that country, who are members of African countries, or who come from Caribbean countries, and how they are deprioritized in this... In the efforts to get people out. You have people... Leadership in Poland talking about, "We don't want Muslims here," which is just code for we don't want Black people here. And you have groups of African students, people of African descent with their babies getting rejected off of trains. And so when I think about anti-Blackness in the movement, I can't help but to be realistic that we are dealing with anti-Blackness in the world. And...

[pause]

0:36:15.0 Theryn: Hold on a second. Let me pull back. Let me pull back to it...

0:36:22.9 Darin: Take your time. Take your time.

0:36:25.2 Theryn: Okay.

0:36:25.7 Darin: Take your time.

0:36:27.6 Theryn: Anti-Blackness is something that the globe perpetuates for its own sense of superiority. Whenever you wanna feel better about yourselves, all you have to do is punch down, if you will, right? And I find that on a local level in the Anti-violence Movement, the work that I did when I started doing, like when I was an employee, being paid full-time to do this work, the anti-Blackness was thicker, if you will. I will say that Black Lives Matter, the George Floyd protests, I think helped shift some of that anti-Blackness on a global level even, right? And so when we see people in South Korea organizing, it feels like the local folks, the local Asian activists who are also doing Black Lives Matter work is connected. That when we see our Latino sisters and brothers speaking up and standing up for Black Lives Matter, that they too are recognizing that there needs to be some support. Like so how do we as marginalized people support one another? 

0:38:07.6 Theryn: So I find that one of the ways that I cope with anti-Blackness and anti-violence movements is that I partner, I seek out, I find other marginalized people who understand the particular ways in which this country's racism is harmful to Black people, much in the way that when I am sitting in spaces with native folks, I am recognizing that we also live in a world that is anti-indigenous, right? And so, then when we can see one another and recognize the world that's creating anti-indigenous stuff, whether it's policies, war, [chuckle] or just straight up gentrification, rape, mass rape and murder, like, when we recognize each other, that's when we can advocate for one another in spaces. So, I might not be in all the spaces with my Asian sisters and brothers that are doing anti-violence work, but I know and trust that they are there pushing back on anti-Blackness in their spaces, right? 

0:39:25.5 Darin: Right.

0:39:26.2 Theryn: The same way I'm pushing back on anti-Asian in my spaces with Black folks. And I think the best work is done by people of color, queer people of color, queer people of color, with disabilities, like... I think the best work is done when we are all organizing.

0:39:46.6 Darin: Right.

0:39:46.7 Theryn: I'm all for allies leveraging their privilege to help elevate the work and the need for resources to support the experiences of brown people in anti-violence work, but if you're not... I'm gonna just be real, if you... And maybe this is a little risky at this time in our American history, considering where we are with Black Lives Matter and war, but as a white person, I got all the allies in the world I need. I need a soldier. I need you to be willing to risk your job...

0:40:37.5 Theryn: Right.

0:40:37.6 Darin: Telling your boss that that's racist.

0:40:38.4 Theryn: Exactly.

0:40:38.8 Darin: I need you to get the white people in your organization to hold those power brokers accountable. That's what I need. I don't need your smile, your hugs, your sorries. Yes, we're out there, fist up, Black Lives Matter, if when you go back to work, you sit by and you watch your bosses create policies and situations that mess up the lives of Black folks and other marginalized people, period. So if you're not anti-Black in your life, bye. We are not having a conversation, you call yourself an ally, but you let anti-Blackness happens in your presence, you do you boo, way over the hell there. If you're not up here in these front lines getting bloody with me, then, we're done.

0:41:27.3 Darin: Yeah, I mean, that's a conversation I often have particularly with Black folks, where we're tired of the allies that requires no sacrifice whatsoever. Even if you're going back to this question, a lot of these organizations committed to interrupting anti-Blackness, but they're still white lead, you know? And so, it's like, at what point does somebody say, "Hey, this is going for me to uplift Black folks, it's going to cost me some of my privilege, some of my power that I've gained through my privilege."

0:42:04.4 Theryn: Right.

0:42:04.5 Darin: I think there's this idea that...

0:42:06.7 Theryn: Yes.

0:42:07.4 Darin: We want to uplift Black folks, but keep white folks exactly where they are.

0:42:11.6 Theryn: Exactly.

0:42:12.8 Darin: The fact of the matter is that the white folks have gotten where they are in our society, in our organizations through oppressing, dominating, controlling Black people. And so, how do we maintain your position while we become lifted up, and that's how you got there in the first place? 

0:42:31.8 Theryn: Okay. I mean, especially if you're in an environment where other people of color are white passing. Right? It's even harder. I mean I worked for an organization doing anti-violence work, and I tell you, I remember sitting down one day with this woman in the organization who was considered a leader, was paid accordingly, they weren't the executive director, but blah, blah, blazze blah, about their work in the organization. I told that woman to her face that what she was saying to me was racist and problematic and tried to get her to recognize it. And she was like, "But I don't know how to hold you accountable if I can't talk to you about this." It's like, "You're holding me accountable? You're trying to hold me accountable to what exactly? For me doing the work the way I think it best get done, or for me not jumping through your hoops because you're still attached to your whiteness and the power that it affords you?" You know what I'm saying? It's a matter of execution. And you don't like my execution, say that.

0:43:49.8 Darin: Exactly.

0:43:50.5 Theryn: And you can say, "You're executing in a way that isn't gonna work for this organization," that's a lot more honest conversation than just telling me that that what I'm doing is not what the organization is asking and I need to be accountable to the project of the organization. No, I need to be accountable to Black folks. I need to be accountable to my people, and that starts with my community, that starts with my household. I don't need to be accountable to those white folks. I dont need to be accountable to none y'all up in here. Am I doing the mission, am I doing the work? Then what are we talking about? 

0:44:26.8 Darin: Exactly. Exactly.

0:44:27.8 Theryn: Ultimately, I left that organization. When I joined that organization, brown people were like, "Girl, how are you doing it? What's it like over there?" Because the organization has a history of not serving people of color, not serving Black folks, being anti-Black and being anti-Latino, right? And long after I was gone, there were some Black folks there that were like, "You know what, we're done," and they managed to get the executive director fired, because the organization itself was a call to personality, and that kind of anti-Black racism was coming from the top down. And you know, but that is not what's happening all over the place.

0:45:18.0 Darin: Right.

0:45:21.8 Theryn: You know? People... And it took a lot, that those Black people had to do a lot, meeting with board members, meeting with each other, meeting with me, trying to organize other people who had worked there in the past. "What's your experience? Can you tell them this?" Like it was just such a mess and it's so crazy, because it's an anti-violence organization yet Black people have to put the work on hold, because we're being mistreated and oppressed within the organizations that are trying to end violence at the hands of white folks, you know? 

0:45:55.7 Darin: Right. And I think... You know, the thing is that, we all hear these stories, know these stories of Black folks experiencing anti-Blackness in these anti-violence organizations, but how many Black people who've had these experiences can talk about that? 

0:46:14.4 Theryn: Exactly. Exactly.

0:46:16.2 Darin: So, so many of these stories are untold. So many of these stories are workers who just one day the organization said, "Hey, this person is no longer with us. We can't talk about it." [chuckle] like we have all seen that. And we've seen that in our anti-violence organizations. And oftentimes it's that person going to... Trying to hold someone accountable and saying, "Hey, I'm experiencing racism, I'm experiencing anti-Blackness, I'm experiencing homophobia, these types of oppressions in this organization." And the organization, probably goes to their board of directors that has this fiduciary duty, and says, "Hey, this is a risk, this is a liability."

0:47:00.3 Darin: And instead of...

0:47:00.8 Theryn: Yeah, yep.

0:47:00.9 Darin: Getting to the root of that problem and ensuring that this liability never happens again, what they say is, "Let's pay this person a settlement, ensure that they can't sue us, let's do an NDA so that they can't talk about this, this doesn't reflect well on us." So instead of dealing with that problem of racism that is institutionalized in this organization, instead we're institutionalizing silence. We're telling Black folks that they can't talk about their experiences of anti-Blackness in these organizations. And this happens so often.

0:47:36.7 Theryn: Exactly. It really does. I mean, it... Oh gosh, I had this epiphany just a second ago as you were talking about anti-Blackness in these organizations and the silencing. The reality is that anti-Blackness is deadly, anti-Blackness kills us. Because when you are in anti-Black spaces, you are faced with the macro and micro-aggressions, assault on a regular basis. Not only from your house to your job, right? Or your house to the community, but within the organization itself. And when we are in constant fight or flight, if we're producing all this over-production of cortisol and on a daily basis over time, studies have shown that the over-production of cortisol has a negative impact on the heart, because it contributes to the hardening of arteries. So literally, it's not because I'm in a bad mood that I'm calling out your anti-Blackness, I'm... It's killing me.

0:48:45.0 Darin: Right. And I think that's what people really need to understand is that anti-Blackness in this movement has killed people. There are workers who are no longer here with us that would be in this movement fighting alongside us today had they not experienced anti-Blackness. There are workers who sign this NDA, and you're put in this position where it's like, you're in a hostile workplace, you're trying to ensure that accountability happens, and then you're presented with this choice. "You can take this settlement and relieve us of our liabilities that's from your discrimination and be silent about this, or you can continue to work in this hostile work environment and continue to be killed by this anti-Blackness.

0:49:34.2 Theryn: Right.

0:49:34.3 Darin: Or you can quit voluntarily and receive no unemployment, no assistance or anything. And oftentimes these settlement amounts are not anywhere near what they should be to actually ensure that that person is cared for, that they have their needs met, that they have the time and space to process and heal from this and then find another job. And I have seen people get lost in that process and lose their house, lose their family, their resources, etcetera.

0:50:01.8 Theryn: Oh, my God.

0:50:05.6 Darin: And that's this movement, that's...

0:50:06.1 Theryn: Yeah.

0:50:07.1 Darin: That's the movement to end gender-based violence, that's put people on the streets. And I think that's what folks don't recognize the gravity of this situation.

0:50:15.0 Theryn: Right, right. We are out here fighting for our lives doing anti-violence work from the organizations that we're supposedly working for, right? 

0:50:30.6 Darin: And one thing to mention is that we often ask these questions when we're coming in. We'll say, "Okay, how are you around these issues, what is your staff make-up?" And oftentimes it's like, "Okay, this is perfect timing because we're actually trying to really address anti-racism and institutionalize that in our organization, come along, we want you to interrupt these things." But then once you get in there, once you begin to do that, there's a recognition that that might not exactly be what they actually wanted.

0:51:02.7 Theryn: Right. They wanted to say they're doing it. They wanted to have a Black face there so it looks like they're doing it. But at the end of the day they're not doing it because it means that they have to give up their privilege, and they're not trying to do that.

0:51:17.9 Darin: Alright. So we're running out of time here...

0:51:18.4 Theryn: Okay.

0:51:18.9 Darin: I think we can talk all day. [laughter] I'm enjoying this. [chuckle] Before we go...

0:51:25.1 Theryn: Yes.

0:51:25.8 Darin: How can people reach you? How can people learn about your work and what you're doing and potentially work with you in this capacity? 

0:51:35.1 Theryn: That is a really good question, because I don't... I'm the kind of person people reach word of mouth. [laughter] Fortunately, 'cause I've been around a long time and then folks will call me or send me a text or DM me and say, "Hey, this organization wants to reach out to you, or this group needs to talk to you. So I think the best way though, to reach me, if you really wanna get in touch with me is to contact me through my day job, which is Seattle Central Community College. Right? And if you go to the arts, humanities, and social services department and you ask to speak to Professor K, they'll go, "Oh, you mean Theryn? Here, let me get you her email." I can also put my email in the chat.

0:52:26.4 Darin: Okay. That'd be great.

0:52:26.5 Theryn: So, I'm very responsive to folks that send me emails. I can... Another way people can reach me. I guess, I should drive traffic to my LinkedIn. [laughter] My LinkedIn, I'm there under an essential bridge. So that's the name of myself as a personal business. So, an essential bridge. You can reach me through LinkedIn. Yes.

0:52:53.0 Darin: Alright. To go through Seattle Central Community College or an essential bridge on LinkedIn. So between all of those, I think folks will be able to hopefully figure it out and get in touch with you. [laughter]

0:53:04.9 Theryn: Okay.

0:53:05.6 Darin: Thank you so much Theryn, I really appreciate your time and this conversation. And I really think that folks in the movement are gonna benefit a lot from hearing this conversation, so I appreciate it.

0:53:17.1 Theryn: Thank you so much. You're an incredible interviewer and I love that you got to all the questions, even with my chatty self.

0:53:23.5 Darin: Alright. Well, that does it for today's podcast. Thank you for joining us for this conversation on anti-Blackness in the movement to end gender based violence. We encourage you to reflect deeply on what you've heard, what you've learned today, and think about how you can implement that in your communities, in your organizations. We also welcome you to reach out to some of the guests in this series of podcasts for organizational technical assistance, consulting, training, and other services. If you haven't already, please do check out the rest of the podcast in this series, this series of podcasts on anti-Blackness in the movement to end gender based violence includes five conversations that are five different perspectives in this movement, five different experiences. I think what you'll find is that sometimes they overlap and sometimes they don't. There's something to gather from each and every single one of them. And again, we encourage you to listen to the entire series of this podcast.

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