0:00:00.2 Louie Marvin: Welcome to Resource on the Go, a podcast from the National Sexual Violence Resource Center on understanding responding to and preventing sexual abuse and assault. My name is Louie Marvin, and I'm a training specialist at the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. And this podcast is part of our male survivors series. Today, Tonjie Reese joins me to talk about economic justice and male survivors who are incarcerated. Tonjie is the Senior Program Officer at Just Detention International or JDI. [music] 0:00:45.3 LM: Tonjie thanks for being on the podcast. Can you introduce yourself and your work with JDI? 0:00:53.2 Tonjie Reese: Hello, hi, good to talk to you today. I'm Tonjie Reese, Senior Program Officer with Just Detention international. In my role in JDI I do a lot of different things. The majority of my work is with our hotlines, we have a hotline based in Michigan and Vermont, so I answer hotline calls from survivors. I also do survivor outreach correspondence with survivors. 0:01:18.0 TR: And I help out with some of our education programming, so with folks who work for crisis centers, and also inmate education, so people who are on the inside and learning about PREA and about their rights and the responsibilities of the facility. 0:01:36.1 LM: Great, thank you. I'm really excited to have you on today. I know that with our advocates, at rape crisis centers who are engaging and working with male survivors in their communities, thinking about how they are reaching and serving male survivors who are currently or formerly incarcerated is a really important part of that work. So, what should advocates in our movement know about the realities of life in detention for survivors who are behind bars? 0:02:15.0 TR: So first, I think it's important just to know that for many survivors, folks who are in prison in general, that life is very different from us on the outside. There is a lot of restrictions of freedom, and not even just the ability to move freely, but the ability to provide for themselves in the same way, and really the facility is responsible for that person. 0:02:42.7 TR: When we think about this from the side of economic justice, with that comes even the limited ability to get the type of hygiene products that people want and need. Most of the times for folks who are not making money in prisons, it's hard for them to get like I said hygiene products, the ability to communicate with the outside and talk to family. We've had folks who've called our hotline who are even being held on like a $200 cash bail, for people who still have that system. 0:03:19.9 TR: So for survivors, the ability to heal, to get support, is not the same. And that really is expanding just because of conditions of confinement in general, and what it's like to be a person who's in prison. 0:03:36.3 LM: Thanks for sharing that. I know that you and I were talking earlier, and we talked about a specific survivor who had called, called your hotline and was hospitalized and accrued some hefty medical expenses. Could you tell our listeners about that experience and what it says about what advocates need to be thinking about when they're thinking about working with male survivors who are incarcerated? 0:04:06.8 TR: Yeah. So on our hotline we have folks who call for different reasons, and this particular person called and they were hospitalized and they got medical expenses from that, and they were charged for the visit there. During the time that they were being transferred to facilities, their television broke in that process, so they were given money for the television, but they had to use that money to cover medical experiences and they weren't really able to replace their TV. 0:04:42.0 TR: And they use TV as a coping mechanism. There are very few, very limited things that people can do to help cope with trauma they've experienced. In this situation, they had to make a choice between coping with trauma they're experiencing or paying a medical bill. If you think about it, compared to how much people are making if they aren't able to work and have a job, it's about 10 cents an hour. So it takes a long time to make $10. It takes a long time to make $5, and if that's your copay that could be an economic burden. 0:05:15.3 TR: I spoke to someone recently too, who is really, was afraid of contracting COVID-19 because they didn't wanna pay they didnt have the money to pay medical copays. And in their situation, because they had a pre-existing condition, they're gonna be charged $10 for every visit, and if they were diagnosed with COVID-19, they know that it's a potential for them to be hospitalized longer term. 0:05:41.5 TR: So that's a concern that we don't often think about, is that people are not really making adequate money, and when they are making money, they have to make choices. It's a choice between going to the hospital and having this, or having the hygiene products as you like. Or going to medical, or calling family and friends. 0:06:03.0 TR: Because everything costs. Making a phone call costs. Buying stamps, stamps cost. Even sending emails costs. Video chatting, all those things cost. And for people who don't really have resources outside or even, like I said the ability to work or work one of these low paying jobs, there's limited time to talk to family and friends. 0:06:26.0 TR: For us, we have our hotline, so people are able to call us, but a lot of the stories that we hear, or a lot of times we hear, "I just don't have the means to reach out to family or to contact family." And there're very limited free phone calls and stamps that people get, especially people who are indigent and don't have money at all. A lot of times people were even poor before entering the facility. So if they don't have money when they enter the facility, a lot of times that won't change. 0:07:05.6 LM: Thanks, Tonjie. Could you share a little bit about how your hotlines interact with kind of the local work that advocates are doing on the ground? I know you have an interesting program that's a collaborative program in Michigan. I just wonder if you could explain a little bit about what that looks like? And then also, what advocates can think about in other communities where they're not partnered with you in that specific way? 0:07:41.5 TR: Yeah. We're really fortunate with our hotline and our relationship with Michigan Department of Corrections because we have several projects with them, but through our hotline and even our survivor outreach services, we have resource guides where we are able to connect survivors who have our packets with rape crisis centers within the community. And also just other people who provide support services for people who were in prison. 0:08:07.1 TR: So I would say for even advocates, it's good to build that relationship with the facility and have a better understanding of the needs of folks. Our understanding of the economic barriers that most survivors face, really comes from hearing stories on our hotline. Any type of communication that you're able to have with survivors on the inside can be helpful, not only for them to receive that type of support service they need, but for you to be able to understand their realities and understand how you can be a better support. 0:08:44.3 TR: Sometimes we know we can't help. I know for us, hearing that someone is in an integrated system, this is in Vermont in an integrated system, where they are in jail and have a bail for jail, but because it's integrated, they're also in prison and still treated as if it's just like a prison. We felt that. We felt that it sucks that someone had to be in there for 200 hours and was not able to leave because of that reason. So for folks who are... 0:09:21.8 TR: For advocates, I would say building that relationship or having even an understanding of who is already working with folks who were in prison, can be the most helpful. Because sometimes they have resources that can be of better support then you can. I know we're all limited, what we can do. So, just building relationships with folks. 0:09:45.3 TR: Even talking to, a lot of times talk to callers about, "Who is out there? What organizations are you working with that have helped and supported you?" And that has helped us to be able to reach out to other organizations and at least have an understanding of what type of services they provide. 0:10:01.5 LM: Those are some great tips. Thanks, Tonjie. I know that in thinking about working with male survivors in local communities, we at NSVRC are really focused on reminding people of a lot of the things that you just said, that you need to be working in partnership with other organizations. And one of those reasons that we hear a lot is, that when we're thinking of male survivors, a lot of male survivors might not be showing up to a sexual assault center for services, might not know that that's a place that they can go. 0:10:38.6 LM: And so, among all the reasons that you're mentioning, just forming those partnerships, and learning who's doing that work, and how you can teach them about sexual assault, and how you can learn from those partners about their work, can really be a great way to serve male survivors. I so appreciate you focusing on that. 0:11:00.2 TR: Yeah. And like you mentioned too, sometimes people don't even know that they can have access to that end. I also wanna mention too that for some survivors, they're also facing economic abuse in their relationships. So they could be from another prisoner or even protective pairing situation. And that can be included as forced into crime or sex work, controlling commissary purchases, their partner refusing to let them work or interfering with their jobs. 0:11:30.7 TR: We've had survivors that I've written letters with and talked on the phone with, who've had these experiences too. It's that intersectionality of being in prison and being in an abusive relationship, and also facing economic barriers too. And specifically, because of how men are socialized around finances and around being the provider, for some men, that can even for them, question their manhood too. 0:12:08.1 TR: We know that there is a big stigma around sexual violence against the men who are in prison. Sometimes, we hear often too where people feel like their masculinity was questioned because of sexual violence. And in the same case, to be forced into sex work or forced into crime can still be harmful to that person. 0:12:30.5 TR: So, those stereotypes pop up a lot, where someone may feel like they are a less of a man because they are not able to provide, or because they're being forced into something that they don't wanna do. For us, we do spend time talking to survivors about that, about what that experience is to not be able to fully be who they want to be. 0:12:56.0 TR: Also, we have to remind them too that a lot of what they're feeling comes from messages from society and pressure. And that they still have a right to be free from sexual violence, and that's not a part of their penalty, and they don't deserve what happened, and it does not make them less of a man because of these things that are happening to them. 0:13:21.1 LM: That's great, thank you for focusing on that socialization aspect and how it impacts somebody's response to trauma. Before I move forward, you mentioned a term, "protective pairing", and I am hoping that you could talk a little bit about what that is, maybe for listeners who might not be familiar? 0:13:45.7 TR: Yeah. So protective pairing is when someone is in a relationship for their own safety. And sometimes it can be because the person is telling them, "If you're with me, then I will keep you safe." Or it could be them being with someone because they believe the person will keep them safe. And that safety can come from actual physical safety. It can come from finances, so someone providing financially for them. 0:14:14.7 TR: And because of the realities of being in prison, sometimes a person may feel like that is their own choice, is to be with someone who is able to support, help them. But a lot of times that comes with a cost, and that cost can be violence, it can be pressure to commit a crime, and a lot of the other relationship abuse things we spoke about. 0:14:41.5 LM: Thank you. I know that in our field, when we're thinking about people who are incarcerated and male survivors who are incarcerated, at least my perception is, and I don't know if this is your perception, but sometimes we don't see the conversation going beyond life behind bars. So remembering that people are released, and they are still having these experiences of carrying trauma, and it might look different than people who haven't had the experience of having been incarcerated. 0:15:22.0 LM: So could you also talk a little bit about just the realities of life after being released and what advocates of sexual assault centers should know about working with male survivors who had been incarcerated, after they've been released? 0:15:36.8 TR: Yeah. Inside the facility you've talked about there is limit access to emotional support. After being released, that really does not change for survivors who are formerly incarcerated. And that is a lot of times they have little or no access to services after being released. 0:15:54.8 TR: The reality in some even victim service organizations don't have the capacity to support formerly incarcerated folks, and usually it's because they haven't done that work before or haven't prepared or are not prepared to serve survivors who are formally incarcerated. And sometimes is policy thing that's not in place. 0:16:16.3 TR: Well, other times, is just because it's not something that's thought of. A lot of times people who are in prison are overlooked and not served at all, underserved, so there are some barriers that are there. And the truth too is sometimes there's some apprehension about working with people who've been in detention. 0:16:36.1 TR: There's some bias against formerly incarcerated folks. In general, people sometimes believe that if someone is in prison or if someone has been in jail, that they're bad, and that contributes to them being overlooked for services. So the first thing is just addressing that reality that just because someone has committed a crime, has spent time in prison, they still did not deserve sexual violence. 0:17:01.0 TR: I will say for a crisis center, just to think about what your bottom line is. If you are there to support survivors of sexual assault and believe that no one deserves sexual assault, are there limits to that? And if there are limits, that you wanna confirm like why are there limits for people who are formerly incarcerated? A lot of times people don't know that there are resources available for them after being released. 0:17:31.5 TR: Also too, sometimes when a person is formerly incarcerated, after being released, they may not be able to find work, it may be difficult for them to make money. And sometimes they have different priorities. If your crisis center is in an area that does not have public transportation, if a survivor doesn't have a car or access to a bus system or not, not the ability to get there. 0:18:05.1 TR: Because of an economic barrier, because not having a car or not having money for transportation or not being able to get there, that's a barrier for them. So just thinking about how programs can be more accessible for formerly incarcerated folks, especially folks who are lower income, who are poor or who don't have money at all after being released. 0:18:27.0 LM: That's awesome. I love that you started talking about how some victim service organizations don't have the capacity, but you've also mentioned that it is their responsibility to build that capacity, so I really appreciate the way that you framed that. I wonder if you could share any, I don't know, stories or anecdotes about things that you think organizations can do to build capacity? 0:19:00.3 LM: Or things that you have seen organizations do in order to build that capacity so they can be ready to truly serve all survivors in their communities, as you said they must be able to do? 0:19:12.4 TR: Yeah. It really starts, I believe it starts internally, it starts in internal conversations amongst organizations, reviewing policies. Is there a policy saying that you cannot serve certain people? And if there is, change it. Figure out how you can change it. And making sure that people feel welcome. So it even comes down to what kind of images are up. How your services are presented to the community. 0:19:44.1 TR: And of course, thinking... I don't think that anyone should ever shy away from any biases that they have, but confront it head on. So if you know that there is some biases happening within your organization, training, talking to other organizations that work with folks who are incarcerated. 0:20:08.1 TR: I can personally say I've spent time with our resource guys, I mentioned earlier, calling and talking to people and asking, "Do you support... Do you have services that are available for incarcerated, formerly incarcerated people?" And some people were like, "Yeah, we do. We actually do groups inside of facilities. Pre-pandemic, we do groups inside facilities, and we have a relationship with the facility." 0:20:35.2 TR: And for other folks that's not the case at all, where they were like, "Well, no. We just don't do it." And there is this thought that because someone, again, is in prison that they're bad. And I think that's the first step, is to address any type of biases there and connect with other folks. 0:20:52.7 TR: But also too, I would say connecting too with the local... Whatever the prison or jail is that is around there, especially if you around prison and jail. We did a training recently where we had corrections officers there and also folks who worked at rape crisis centers, then we asked what their relationships were like. 0:21:13.3 TR: A lot of people said they did not have relationship with the corrections facility at all, or they didn't have a relationship with the rape crisis center. So that relationship building is especially important. If we're doing people-centered kinda work, we have to remember that when someone is coming back into the community, they're not coming back with everything that they need. 0:21:38.3 TR: And so as support services folks, the best way to do it is to band together and to figure out how we can offer that support together and then refer, if you don't have that. I've just spoke to like a young man recently on our hotline who is scheduled to be released next year. He went in when he was 17, and he's due to come out when he's around 23, 24, and he was worried. He was worried about being released and being expected to be an adult, but not having that experience, not having the same experiences as other 24-year-olds. 0:22:20.0 TR: Or expected to pay bills, which is a big thing that he talked about was, "I don't know how I'mma pay bills when I'm out, and I don't really know what it is I can do." So these are real people who have real issues. And the best thing that we can do as support folks is to continue to work together and continue to figure out what those needs are, and if you can't meet a need, doing that research and finding out who might be able to meet that need. 0:22:49.5 LM: Great. I love that message. I feel like... I don't know. I feel like that's a great summary of just all the work that we're trying to do in this movement, beyond male survivors who are or have been incarcerated. So I really appreciate you, Tonjie, bringing that message here and making it specific to male survivors who are incarcerated or have been incarcerated. 0:23:16.8 LM: I know you mentioned earlier that male socialization and gender stereotypes are really important to understand as advocates are approaching working with men who are incarcerated. Is there anything else that you wanted to say about that, thinking now of realities of life after being released, how maleness and masculinity, and any kind of stigma related to male socialization is important for advocates to know working with men after they've been released? 0:23:49.5 TR: Yeah. So the first part is, there are a lot of stereotypes that are harmful and put pressure on people, that... And if you don't meet that stereotype then it can make a person feel like they are less of a man, or it can have other people judge him. And the truth is there are some labels that men feel more comfortable embracing. Sometimes a man, and not in a way that's toxic, he can embrace being strong and tough and brave. 0:24:20.7 TR: So I think advocates should recognize that too, that for some men financially providing is something that's important. Even after being released and in detention, it's something that is still important. For some people, people who a lot of times are going right back into the community they left before they were in prison. 0:24:41.5 TR: If a person, before they came in, was in the community that was poor, or they didn't have money, or they do what they had to do to make money, and when they come back out they get in that same environment, some people may be facing that same pressure to make money in ways that are not always legal. And so that's a reality. 0:25:04.2 TR: Recidivism rates are high and people... We'll talk about reentry at some point, but when coming back into the community, for some folks that is an enormous amount of pressure to take on some of those stereotypes of being the provider. That doesn't shift or change, so it is possible that someone is still facing that pressure after being released. 0:25:29.9 TR: I think it's important for advocates to understand that reality and to address and acknowledge and validate the fact that, yes, the person may wanna be a provider, yes, they wanna make money, they still wanna be brave and tough and strong, and also letting them know too, that if they don't fully meet these stereotypes the way that other people expect them to, that that's okay. 0:25:56.4 TR: There's a very good documentary called, Feminist on Cellblock Y. And in the documentary, they have a group session, and someone mentions that pressure to commit a crime in order to support their family. And now being behind bars, they still can't support their family. So men still do face a lot of those pressures and after being released, again that doesn't go away. So advocates can think of ways to offer that support while still validating parts of their masculinity that they embrace. 0:26:35.7 LM: Thanks Tonjie, I love the way you said that. Really, really appreciating you talking about stereotypes and how advocates can approach the reality of gender and socialization in a way that meets the needs of the survivors in their communities. And I know that you in particular have provided some leadership in this moment where our country is talking about racial justice, perhaps in some new ways, even though these are not new issues, and activism is happening in different communities. 0:27:15.1 LM: I know that you have done some really great thinking and work around JDI's role in this moment, and just in general JDI's role in addressing racial injustice. So I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit? Especially in light of this conversation on male survivors who are incarcerated and economic justice. And also just what you would say to advocates at sexual assault centers about how working with male survivors who are currently or formerly incarcerated can be or is part of racial justice work? 0:27:52.0 TR: Yeah. At JDI one thing that when this uprising-ness, this civil rights uprising we're having right now, when things were first starting to spark and more conversations were being had, we... Fully recognizing the fact that because we work with people who are in prison, and because the majority of folks in prison are Black and Brown men, that our work is also racial justice work. That we are also doing work to ensure that people feel safe, and that we are also recognizing that discrimination does happen inside prison. 0:28:33.2 TR: We talk to survivors who have been targeted for sexual violence because of their race, because... Or there are some expectations on people who carry those same, again, those biases and stereotypes against Black and Brown men, and feel like they are more aggressive more tough and need to be controlled a bit more. 0:28:58.0 TR: We have had some really intentional conversations at JDI about how our work fits into that. We also have some resources on our website around police brutality, because it's possible too, some folks too are sexually assaulted while in police custody, which contributes to police brutality. That's still a part of it. 0:29:21.1 TR: So we've recognized that the need for conversations around racial justice does not end, and it should not end. We cannot... Especially when working with survivors who are incarcerated, we can't, again, ignore the fact that the majority of the people are Black and Brown men. And so because of that, I would say for rape crisis centers, it's important to be well versed on the understanding of the pressures and the impact that Black men face, and be really mindful of that and how that fits into the framework of sexual violence. 0:29:58.3 TR: If we already are... Or the stigma around sexual violence and the social perception of being sexually assaulted in prison is a form of weakness. Think about how that can impact someone who is also being told that they need to be extra tough and extra strong because of their maleness and their blackness being intersected. 0:30:18.8 TR: So, just really thinking about those things first and not shying away from that conversation and not feeling like this is does not include your work. Because at the root of it is oppression, and power and control is still at that root. Again, I'm always about working internally to make sure that externally you're able to provide the best supportive work. And so keeping those things in mind that men who we talk to on the hotline are still aware of what is happening on the outside. 0:30:55.6 TR: They're still aware that people are being killed by police, still aware that racial violence is prevalent and they still feel that impact. I know I've talked to callers too who are Black men who are in facilities in predominantly White counties. I've talked to people who feel like working sometimes as a Black man in prison having all White corrections officers, and feeling like they can't fully be themselves or fully even breathe and be able to all have support and not even feel comfortable talking to people in prison. 0:31:40.6 TR: I think as often as we can, we have to remember the reality of folks on board, and we're able to understand their experiences, the better support that we're able to give. 0:31:51.6 LM: Thank you so much, Tonjie. That was so great. I just wanna ask if you have anything else that you wanted to say, that you didn't get a chance to in our conversation today? 0:32:01.1 TR: I would just say, again, we have resources on JDI's website available. We have a couple of webinars just specifically talking about men of color and women of color. And also too just trainings, just talking about better ways to support survivors. So thank you for having me for having me, and being able to talk about economic justice and how that relates to male survivors. 0:32:33.6 LM: Great. Well, thanks again. Thanks for coming and talking to us in this podcast today, Tonjie. And as you already said, JDI has a lot of resources, and we will invite listeners to learn more about working with male survivors, and also all about JDI's work, by checking out the links in the show notes. [music] 0:33:07.9 LM: Thanks for listening to this episode of Resource on the Go. For more resources and information about understanding, responding to and preventing sexual assault, visit our website at www.nsvrc.org. You can also get in touch with us by emailing resources@nsvrc.org.