0:00:00.2 Speaker 1: Welcome to Resource on the Go, a podcast from the National Sexual Violence Resource Center on understanding, responding to, and preventing sexual abuse and assault. My name is Louie Marven, and I'm the training specialist at the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. This podcast is part of our male survivor series. Today, Kenton Kirby joins me to talk about understanding expressions of trauma for men. Kenton is the director of practice at the Center for Court Innovation.

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0:00:40.9 S1: Kenton thanks for being on the podcast. Can you introduce yourself and share a little bit about your anti-violence work with young men? 

0:00:48.8 Speaker 2: Thanks. How you doin', Louie? Yes. From Kenton Kirby, as Louie mentioned, I'm the director of practice at the Center for Court Innovation. I've been in the field working specifically in anti-violence work for about 10, 15 years. But in a number of different settings. I started out in child welfare, working with families who were in the child welfare system, and then I worked in the courts as an advocate. I've been working with families and individuals who had... Too tied up in various court matters and I served as their advocate, and a voice of support for them in their experiences. But for the past maybe seven years, I worked intimately with a anti-gun violence project in Brooklyn, New York called, "Save Our Streets Brooklyn." It's some replication of the Cure Violence model that started in Chicago, where you look at community gun violence specifically from the lens of a public health issue. We hire folks who have their own social currency in the community, maybe at some point they were involved in gun violence in their earlier days when they were younger and maybe formally incarcerated, or they're just the influencer in the neighborhood who were able to reach those closer to the issue of gun violence.

0:02:09.5 S2: As a social worker, I was actually one of the first social workers in New York to work very closely with anti-gun violence projects. So with our, we call them, outreach workers and violence interrupters, as they're canvassing the community and making connections with folks and talking that anti-gun violence messaging. I was also the social worker working alongside them often talking about mental health, the importance of mental health and really processing things. And so my job was to be connected, working alongside these outreach workers and violence interrupters but also providing that ongoing mental health services to some of these participants who typically, because of mistrust in the systems which is justified historically, that for being able to provide those mental health services and not in the traditional way of just coming to the office, paying a co-pay, and sitting there and waiting your turn, having a 30-minute or 45-minute session with me and then you're on your way, really bringing the intervention script right to them in the community, having a session on your block, sitting on a bench, or having a session in a place that you're safe.

0:03:21.7 S2: Understanding that a lot of our young folks that we work with, typically young men, as a former survivor, many of our young men we work with, have joined street organizations to belong something and to feel safe. And that comes with other things that compromise your safety. So maybe you can't come to my neighborhood where my office is set in, so I have to go out to you. So I did that for a number of years, and now I'm in a world where I have to... I'm working with a larger agency to really start injecting a culture of practice. How do we provide supportive services to folks that's anti-racist, anti-oppressive and really leading with the clients and participants' needs? So that's where I'm at now. So thank you for having me here.

0:04:11.4 S1: Thanks Kenton. You're doing such great work, and you're already touching on so many of the things that we at NSVRC are talking about in this project and beyond. So I guess I just wanna talk about that safety that you mentioned in introducing your work. And so, you're working with young men who've experienced some kind of harm. So how do you create safety for a young man who has been harmed to talk about that harm? And particularly, how can an advocate do that in their work at a sexual assault center? 

0:04:44.4 S2: I think I learned how to get... For me, it was a learning process to get there. Since I started, like I mentioned, I worked in child welfare and I was a cog in the system, and I had the same language that I was trained in using. Some of the language that really resonates with me was a, "It's agency policy. That's not my job. Those things, but I'm here to help you." Those are things you say in a conversation to end the conversation, or to get out of the conversation. And so for so many years, I was trained in that way and I was actually exercising that. And I think I started kinda coming to terms with that when I became an advocate in the courts. And I was serving as this advocate trying to lift up the voices of the folks I'm working for by pushing against those systems that I worked in, and I was getting that same response, "Oh, that's our policy, Mr. Kirby. We can't do any... It's out of our control." And then I was like, "Well, I'm doing the same thing here. What kind of advocate am I?" An advocate is supposed to push against the grain. So in my work with the young men I started working with in my new job, my current role not with my previous role at my agency, I realized I had to lead with fun humility and understand that I represent a system historically that has caused harm to the young folks I've worked with, the young men I've worked with, and building trust has to come from that place of humility and being consistent.

0:06:20.9 S2: So if I tell some young person that I'm working with, that I'm gonna see them every Wednesday, I better show up every Wednesday, even if they don't show up. I better make that call every Tuesday, if I say I'm gonna do it. And that is how you build trust. That is how I was able to build trust, being consistent and also being humble and understanding that, "Hey listen, you don't have to trust me and you are justified in that, but this is what I'm gonna do." And it worked. In my experience, it worked. And I think it worked because when I get feedback from the young men I've worked with, if there's already lived experiences, many of them say, it was like, "You weren't like a social worker or a case worker, Ken." And I'm like, "Well, that's what I am. I'm a social worker." But they're like, "But you're different." And it made me think about how many times they were told that word, "Oh, it's out of my control." I can't do everything but what I can say is, "I don't have the answer. But let me see what I can do, and I would keep you updated as best as I can." So humility, transparency, and patience. Those are the three things that I feel really helped me build trust with the young folks, the young men I've worked with over the years.

0:07:39.9 S1: That's great. Yeah, thanks for that. And I know that in the conversations that we've had outside of this podcast episode, we've talked about how important it is for you and for others who are working with men to understand the ways that men express trauma. And so what are some of the common ways that men express trauma and what are some of the important things to know for someone who is encountering those expressions? For example, like an advocate at a sexual assault center? 

0:08:15.8 S2: I would say a lot of how I've seen trauma and some reactions in the young men I've worked with, it's definitely not the traditional, coming in, cowering in the corner. In fact, many times it's the complete opposite. It's someone who is a bit more... I don't wanna say aggressive, assertive in their physical expression, someone who will push you away, and I think that it can be tied to our lessons around how we're supposed to be socialized as men. Our earliest messaging that we're getting is when we're a baby learning how to walk, and you fall, and you about the cry, and everyone tells you, "Hey, boy. Don't cry, don't cry. It's okay, don't cry." That is the first opportunity where we had our emotional experience muted. And when we don't... When we follow that script, we're then celebrated. So then as we get older, the more we don't show those complex emotions, the better people, "Oh, no, he's got this. He's a man. He's got this under control." When it fact, not having that full understanding those complex emotions really impacts how we engage with folks, how we make connections with people, how do we assess what a safe space is for us.

0:09:47.5 S2: Looking at something like vulnerability as the thing that is, "Woah, but we can't show that," when in fact, there's so much strength in vulnerability and so much growth in vulnerability. Before every group, I would check in and be like, "How are you doing?" And every young man would tell me, "I'm good." And I'm like, "No. Tell me more, give me more. What do you mean by, 'I'm good?'" And that was the hardest question for so many of them to understand, to break down, and talk deeper about. I have young people who couldn't even physically, couldn't even verbalize how they're feeling, they would express it just through their body language. And would describe somebody, say, "They're really making me feel... " And then just physically manifesting their feelings. It was such a challenge to connect that to words. That's been something that I focus a lot of my energy on, and I've loved so many young men I've worked with who were at that point, they couldn't even put words to it, are now able to say, "Ken, I felt I was angry, but I really think I was embarrassed by what was going on, so that's why my anger came out."

0:11:03.8 S2: So they were understanding that there's a second... There are just layers to emotion. But that took time, that took time, and that took meditation. [chuckle] That was time and it took us understanding that this service, it should not be tethered or attached to some kind of punishment. It took time because these guys, they felt that they needed to trust us, they needed to trust the work that we were doing and understanding that it wasn't because of some system that was going to dictate them after they worked with us. That's been my experience with how great young men understand their emotions and being able to be vulnerable.

0:11:44.5 S1: Yeah. I think that's really great for advocates to hear. Thank you so much. Yeah, I think that it can be really scary to think about encountering someone who is coming from a place of maybe anger, if that's the only emotion that they've been told their whole life that is acceptable to express. So I think you're really walking through some really helpful stuff for advocates to build that trust that you're talking about. So also in our conversations about working with male survivors, you've shared that sexual assault and sexual abuse has really been an underlying theme for a lot of men, even though it's really been the presenting issue, and it's not necessarily the over or specific reason that you've been working with a lot of young men. But what can advocates of sexual assault centers learn from that? That men are showing up with different presenting issues, but that sexual abuse and assault may be underlying issues. So what can this advocates of sexual assault centers learn from that in their work with male survivors? 

0:12:54.5 S2: Yeah. Just because whatever the presenting issue is to understand there are layers beneath that. The presenting issue is what we know. And what we know is what people are allowing us to know. I work with a young person for three years. Three, four years, intimately, walk with him through various things, and he did not disclose to me... Not disclose his sex assault, but he did not disclose to me suicide attempts that he contemplated while he was in treatment with me. And he was like, "I didn't feel like I could share that with anyone yet."

0:13:37.1 S2: So understanding that folks with these... Mental health within men is something that's already stigmatized, and we're starting to break down that stigma. There's a lot of really awesome groups, really focusing on mental health in men, mental health in black men, which is great. But that stigma has prevented a lot of people from sharing their true experiences. So understanding whatever that presenting issue is, be ready that there may be more stuff under the mat, and be willing and be ready for it when it comes out. But understand that it's not our timeline. It's their timeline. And we have to create that space where they feel like they can share. Like that young man told me after several years that he made that attempt. I didn't go... I was like, "Oh, I wish you would have told me." I was like, "What did I miss? What didn't I do that made this young man feel comfortable enough to share this with me?"

0:14:42.8 S2: And I was reflecting on it. He was spending more time in our groups than in individual and that's not something that he would wanna share in a group. If we had more opportunities when we had, maybe, I would meet with him maybe once a month, twice a month individually, but I was sitting like a week for groups. If I switched that around, if I listened to the indicators, if I paid a little more attention toward indicators in groups, maybe I would have picked up on something like, "Hey, maybe this kid, maybe this man needs a bit more one-on-one." So that's what I would suggest. Be patient around like... Understand that this is on their timeline. And then assess your own intervention. Is the intervention the one that they actually need in the moment? 'Cause he needed group. He got something out of group, but he would have gotten more out of that one-on-one time.

0:15:33.9 S1: Yeah, yeah. And the stigma around mental health that you're talking about, it seems to me that shame is something that exists along that same lines. And so, have you seen shame function as an experience for male survivors of sexual assault? 

0:15:53.5 S2: Shame breeds isolation. And at least for the young men that I have worked with, that shame has led to more assertive behavior, more assertive expressions. And the assertiveness of the... I'll say aggression. The aggression that we see pushes people away. By pushing people away, I'm able to isolate myself. "Oh, don't go bother him. Oh, he's not the one to mess with. Oh no, I'mma stay away." So now that breeds my own isolation, my shame, embarrassment, anger, all breeds my isolation and my behaviors reinforce that.

0:16:38.8 S2: I don't get new friends. I don't trust anybody new. No new friends. And then you go, "But what about any of your friends?" "Oh, I trust them as far as I can see them." What's that about? Start peeling back the layers and you start thinking about that's the first five years of someone's life. How do they learn their twisted attachment style? Where did that come from? If you had traumatic experiences happening in that moment, during that vital time, that five range. I'm not surprised when I see certain behaviors out here. I don't condemn you for those behaviors, I understand that those behaviors, they keep you safe in your notion of what safety is. But now my question is, "Okay, do we still need to be this constant? Do you still need to be that way?" And that's the challenge, that's the problem. How do we get our young folks from this little space of... How do we also get our male survivors from a place of surviving to thriving? And that's one of the biggest challenges.

0:17:50.4 S1: Yeah. Yeah, Kenton, you mentioned before that for the young men that you're working with, they're encountering assistant, maybe as part of a punitive measure. And so talk about how you approach young men who are having that experience? How do you approach young men as their advocate who recognizes that it takes courage to disclose sexual abuse? 

0:18:18.3 S2: Oh, understand that probably acknowledging that... One, it takes a lot to do it. But secondly, maybe you never had an experience or a setting that made you feel safe enough to even expose it because now you're thinking about all of the things that can happen, the domino effect, of now I disclose this, and now this person's gonna know, and this person's gonna know and... We talked about isolation. That isolation was keeping my story safe, was protecting my story, was protecting that, so no one could do anything about it. No one can take advantage of me anymore 'cause I'm holding the story. So relinquishing that is such a scary moment, such a scary experience. So how do we give folks comfort when they do that? And protect that story the same way. Years ago, I worked at a child advocacy center, and I used to work with young folks. And our system of "accountability," I'm using air quotes, it punishes the person that was harmed so horribly.

0:19:34.4 S2: I remember doing interviews with a child, and there's eight people on the other side of this one-way mirror, and we're trying to reduce harm, instead of having all these people interview this kid. I'm doing the interview, but they're all watching it like it's a movie. Now I'm gonna go and get the systems moving, they're moving their role, getting that stuff going on, on the systems. For my stories that I've protected, they kept me safe and now I'm not safe anymore, 'cause now if I wanna have accountability in this formal, how we look at it, I gotta testify. I gotta do this, I gotta talk here, I gotta show, I gotta stand up and say, "Yes, I'm this person that's been harmed by this person." That is not just vulnerability, 'cause the strength of vulnerability, that it gets to be an exploitive in a notion of what we call justice. And I think as an advocate, as a person that works alongside folks, really needed to understand the gravity of that disclosure. What does that mean? What chance did they take to tell you? 'Cause you're probably not the first person that they could have said something to. So understand the gravity of that responsibility and take it seriously. So I say things like, "In that kind of moment, this is the agent's policy. You can't do it. It's not something that I'm throwing out there, 'cause that took bravery on your end, and I need to honor that, just like you have."

0:21:26.6 S1: Yeah. I think probably a lot of folks would recognize that isolation is maybe one coping mechanism or a result of a coping mechanism that a survivor may go through, but I really appreciate how you've laid out all those steps along the way. I think the way that you approach the work is really great, and our listeners are gonna have a lot of great thinking to do from hearing that approach that you bring to working with young men in particular. Kenton, is there anything else that you wanted to share with our audience about working with male survivors? 

0:22:07.0 S2: Yeah. In my work with the young men I've worked with, I've always looked at historically what help looked like. And actually, I just started questioning the term help. Help creates this hierarchy, you're lesser than me because I'm here to help you and show you what to do. If we are truly trying to empower folks, or not even just empower, but leverage the expertise and strength that they already have because they were getting through whatever they were getting through without us there. If we can humble ourselves as practitioners, I feel we can make more of an impact for the folks that we get to work for. I'm not here to help you, I'm here to work for you. If this was not an issue, I wouldn't have a job. There'd be no grants, no funding opportunities for me and my agency to go out there and get if these situations weren't happening. So we need to lead like that, we are here in service of you, and that is how we really, truly make progress with folks, in my opinion. So yeah, question, the notion of help. We're here to work for people, but I'm not here to help you.

0:23:45.7 S1: That's a great final word on our conversation, Kenton. Thank you so much for joining us today. We invite listeners to learn more about working with male survivors by checking out the links in the show notes.

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0:24:12.8 S1: Thanks to listening for this episode of Resource On The Go. For more resources and information about understanding, responding to and preventing sexual assault, visit our website at www.nsvrc.org. You can also get in touch with us by emailing resources@nsvrc.org.